Citrus and amber

Hi all!

I am trying to come up with a woody-ambery-citrus scent. This comes nicely, formula is complex and result is quite multi-layered.

But, a common problem: sits close to skin.

I would be very grateful for a quick look on the formula to see what would you correct about it. One more solution could be trying to insert some high-impact like cis-3-hexenol or allyl amyl glycolate, but I suspect there’s something in the formula that needs to be removed/reevaluated first.

Thanks!

Musks
Edenolide 113
Galaxolide 87
Exaltolide Pure 44
Ambrettolide HC 5

Woody
Iso E Super 127
Patchouli EO MD 84
Mahagonate 23
Fir Balsam 23
Cedar Taiwan Co2 20
Juniper Co2 19
Patchouli Absolute 19
Dihydro Ionone Beta 11
Norlimbanol Dextro 6
Oakwood Co2 2

Ambery
Olibanum Resinoid 23
Myrrhe Resinoid 10
Ambermor DL 9
Ethyl Maltol 2
Ambrocenide 0.3

Rest
Citrone Eo 80
Hedione 42
Verdox 27
Repellenol 26
Tetrahydro linalool 21
Citrotene D 21
Lyral 16
Davana eo 14
Bergamot eo 13
Iris concrete 13
Delta dodecalactone 12
Neryl acetate 12
Veloutone 12
Paradisamide 10
Helional 9
Florol 9
Cardamom co2 9
Valencene 8
Methyl octalactone 5
Evernyl 4
Undecavertol 3
Sweet basil eo 3
Methyl ionone beta 1
Liatrix abs 0.3
C-10 0.01
C-11 0.01

wow,
Repellenol 26
Haven't seen that one before...

Start by making your Bergamot dosage 130, instead of 13.

pkiler said:

wow,
Repellenol 26
Haven't seen that one before...

Start by making your Bergamot dosage 130, instead of 13.

Click to expand...

Hahah I was just about to post something with the same sentiment lol. Repellenol is an interesting name for an AC lol - I have to get my nose on some of that! Seems I might have mislabeled some of my ACs as I have a sneaking suspicion that a majority of my creations contain high amounts of Repellenol...

@BoisPlantage - that's a super complex formula...have you tried breaking it down into the 3 parts; base, middle and top? Maybe you could narrow down the offending flattening ACs by doing that? You have a lot of musks in there and they are murder for killing good creations, especially exhaltolide that just kills scents dead (but the dry down is so nice ).

What about making your formula from the top down instead of from the base up? Separate all your ACs starting from the highest projection ACs to the lowest, flattening ACs...then construct your scent from the high impact notes down to the low ones? This way you could see which chemicals are the naughtiest.

Make a high impact batch then split it into multiple bottles, adding a little bit of the various musks into each bottle to see if you can do without adding them.

Yeah what a good name for an AC, lol. Repellenol should be Rhodinol mixed with Cubebaol, ie a spicy rose.

Thank you for your suggestion, Paul. I have Bergamot there at 13 because there is Citrone at 80 - and, actually, I liked the version just with Citrone (no bergamot) better (however it was the same in terms of projection)

pkiler said:

wow,
Repellenol 26
Haven't seen that one before...

Start by making your Bergamot dosage 130, instead of 13.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the tip about splitting the formula.

When you say “Separate all your ACs starting from the highest projection ACs to the lowest”, you mean by their respective molecular weight? Or by TGSC “substantivity”? Some other arbitrary factor?

Also, what’s with Exaltolide’s suppression? Does it really have that trait? I use it because it seems to round off complex formulas nicely, but never thought it could mess up projection at 4-5%.

The daddy said:

What about making your formula from the top down instead of from the base up? Separate all your ACs starting from the highest projection ACs to the lowest, flattening ACs...then construct your scent from the high impact notes down to the low ones? This way you could see which chemicals are the naughtiest.

Make a high impact batch then split it into multiple bottles, adding a little bit of the various musks into each bottle to see if you can do without adding them.

Click to expand...

Agreed that you probably have way too much, too powerful musk molecules. Just try the identical formula with only 100 galax. Here is an example of a very good performing citrus woody (oud) amber:

https://basenotes.com/community/threads/leather-oud-concept.530245/post-5760600

BoisPlantage said:

Thank you for the tip about splitting the formula.

When you say “Separate all your ACs starting from the highest projection ACs to the lowest”, you mean by their respective molecular weight? Or by TGSC “substantivity”? Some other arbitrary factor?

Also, what’s with Exaltolide’s suppression? Does it really have that trait? I use it because it seems to round off complex formulas nicely, but never thought it could mess up projection at 4-5%.

Click to expand...

From experience in testing my scents, and from the advice of the experts in here like mnitabach, I painfully discovered that a lot of ACs just totally flatten your creations - even in super small doses. I absolutely love the smell of exhaltolide so in my early days of this hobby, I would always be putting it into my creations. Right from the start, without even thinking, exhaltolide would be going into my formula just because of how nice it smells, the rounding off effects it gives, and the super long lasting dry down.

It was only when I took an interest in the projection of my formulas did I realize how certain ACs can just totally squash your scents. The big offenders are certainly the musks...they may smell lovely, they may make your scent last hours longer...but you don't get those effects for free; the cost is lots of projection.

Test it out for yourself - just make up a simple accord of iso, norlimbanol, bergamot, and C10. Now do the same accord but add exhaltolide...you will immediately see the squashing effect it has.

When it comes to top down fragrance creation, I don't know of any system other than using your nose. I've had long discussions in here with the experts and there doesn't seem to be a scientific way of knowing how ACs perform with other ACs - they all interact with each other in unpredictable ways. Top down mixing to me is to separate all your ACs into the high projecting notes (c10, cis 3, ambrox, citrol, norlimbanol, etc) and your low notes (basically, all the musks and fixatives). Anything fatty or greasy could also squash your scent, although this isn't always the case, it's a good indicator that it might be a problem. Cashmeran is one of the worst when it comes to this - screws up the evaporation rates of all the other ACs - so it flattens the opening, makes the middle unpredictable, and then projects like a beast at the end! To check, just sniff your ACs - are they hyper strong? Are they filling your entire nose? Do you only need to add a little to your formula? Do they linger in the air? These are the high projection ACs so start with them, start from the high projecting notes and then slowly work your way down to the flatteners like the musks - with each new note you add, ask yourself "is the scent wider or flatter"? You'll soon nail down the culprit ACs. Or make up your formula as normal but leave out all the musks - split the batch into 2, add the musks to one, leave them out of the other. You'll immediately notice the difference.

Good luck!