"Who are you wearing?": does the designer brand still matter in the era of homogeneity?

marco938 said:

Anyone knows where to get this kind of data?

Click to expand...

Presumably the most salient data will be internal/not available to the public but you could try something like Statista.

Guasón said:

I have no idea half of what you're talking about haha but I think the idea of exoticism of the Far East of Asia of its perfumes its notes, its stories and so on... It is nothing new in European perfume culture. You only need to look at the past a hundred years ago the names the notes, the stories.... Mitsouko, Japan, the fruity and delicate aroma of peach... Shalimar, India, the flower garden, the exoticism of vanilla... Bois des Iles, sandalwood. Samsara.... everything! Bunch of examples ...These perfumes seem very tamed now but decades ago they had very precious, strong and animalic notes...they were not precisely available in Grasse. The influence of the East in the golden age of perfumery and the use of exotic notes is evident don't you think? I mean it doesn't seem like anything new to me. For me to use ouds, saffron etc now is, so to speak, more of the same. But I suppose they also have to change the subject a little to try to sell more and also today the ease of obtaining these materials will be greater than 50 years ago and the offer can be more varied.

Click to expand...

The presence of oriental notes in fragrances from 100 years ago is quite different to what we're talking about re: global homogenisation and catering to Asian customers. The former was made overwhelmingly for the bourgeois European; the latter is for a much wider market in both location and economic class. The shift, then, from something particular to something more generic, is understood in this way.

The assertion - "oriental notes in fragrances from 100 years...therefore oud is for the Europeans because of exoticism & nothing has changed" - is baseless (asserted without evidence). The claim doesn't follow the evidence. Of course we can analyse the changes, the differences from previous decades. Exoticism is also a particular postcolonial and orientalist concept, not just the presence of Asian styles, notes.

As for materials, as previously discussed: European businesses (specifically: French) are creating the synthetic oriental notes of today.

Is all of this "new" i.e. novel, unprecedented? No. But I don't think anyone has suggested that.

The thread is about how houses are (if they are) retaining distinction during a period of extreme sameness: in terms of style, clientele, mood etc.

Here we go. Take the thread in the same spirit.



Do this for fragrance houses.

Have some fun

For example, everyone knows Dior's brand signature is sparkling aldehydes. That silvery, ethereal quality really resonates with their Amelie-chic, millennial, art girl customers. Gucci can only dream...

I am sorry friend I know that maybe this topic deviates a little from the general topic but I still don't understand what you mention about the Asian market "and catering to asian customer". What exactly do you mean can you elaborate on your theory a bit? As far as I know the big European or American brands sell the same perfumes in New York as in Shanghai or 99%. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you... I got the feeling you wanted to imply that in the last 20 years or so there has been a change in style... strategy... tone... sorry I don't know what to call it... in the big brands to attract the Asian customer and this big market. But as I say maybe I'm wrong... if so, I beg you to correct me...But if you want to say something like that what evidence or information sources do you have? Would it really be great if you could share the information I am very interested... Or is it simply your opinion?

slpfrsly said:

Here we go. Take the thread in the same spirit.

View attachment 486347

Do this for fragrance houses.
Have some fun

Click to expand...

For men, Versace, Kiton, and Burberry ( the Burberry made in Italy) make the best pants and shirts, although the prices have soared! Versace has a lot of misses, but when they hit they are home runs.

slpfrsly said:

For example, everyone knows Dior's brand signature is sparkling aldehydes. That silvery, ethereal quality really resonates with their Amelie-chic, millennial, art girl customers. Gucci can only dream...

Click to expand...

How many people have smelled most of every major designer's fragrances? You'd need to smell a lot of them to notice patterns and commonalities, and you'd need to smell their peers in order to see how they are distinctive. This is a very tricky thing to do, especially with boutique exclusives and brands like Chanel discouraging decants.

From Dior I've smelled Dior Homme, which to my understanding has had an enormous amount of variation over the years, Farenheit, Sauvage, Sauvage 9000, Eau Sauvage and Dior Homme Intense. Maybe a couple others, but I didn't notice much in common between these.

I'm not an authority on fragrance, but I am an authority on my perception, and I have rarely noticed distinctive common accords in a house; I have noticed stylistic things but they are subtle, and often defied. For example, for Guerlain I have smelled Mitsuoko, Shalimar, Chamade I think, Homme EDP, two of the Homme Ideals, Vetiver, Heritage, Habit Rouge, Encens Mythique, Eau de Guerlain, and a few others from the Absolus Orient Line. What commonality do I notice? Very little; they tend to have a sense of moderation and an affinity for traditional-ish ingredients, they tend to smell 'blended' rather than having very distinct notes, but the same could be said for a lot of good perfumes.

I can't definitively say that there are not house styles, but I can suppose that if I, someone who seeks smells more than most people, doesn't notice an aromatic identity, there may be limited incentive for brands to maintain such identity.

Mr. Spritz said:

How many people have smelled most of every major designer's fragrances? You'd need to smell a lot of them to notice patterns and commonalities, and you'd need to smell their peers in order to see how they are distinctive. This is a very tricky thing to do, especially with boutique exclusives and brands like Chanel discouraging decants.

From Dior I've smelled Dior Homme, which to my understanding has had an enormous amount of variation over the years, Farenheit, Sauvage, Sauvage 9000, Eau Sauvage and Dior Homme Intense. Maybe a couple others, but I didn't notice much in common between these.

I'm not an authority on fragrance, but I am an authority on my perception, and I have rarely noticed distinctive common accords in a house; I have noticed stylistic things but they are subtle, and often defied. For example, for Guerlain I have smelled Mitsuoko, Shalimar, Chamade I think, Homme EDP, two of the Homme Ideals, Vetiver, Heritage, Habit Rouge, Encens Mythique, Eau de Guerlain, and a few others from the Absolus Orient Line. What commonality do I notice? Very little; they tend to have a sense of moderation and an affinity for traditional-ish ingredients, they tend to smell 'blended' rather than having very distinct notes, but the same could be said for a lot of good perfumes.

I can't definitively say that there are not house styles, but I can suppose that if I, someone who seeks smells more than most people, doesn't notice an aromatic identity, there may be limited incentive for brands to maintain such identity.

Click to expand...

The Guerlinade, Lanvinade, Chanelade, Ricciade, etc., used to make a brand very identifiable. The restriction of many of the original “ade” notes is likely a major factor in their disappearance, probably as well as various corporate and creative decisions through the years.

FiveoaksBouquet said:

The Guerlinade, Lanvinade, Chanelade, Ricciade, etc., used to make a brand very identifiable. The restriction of many of the original “ade” notes is likely a major factor in their disappearance, probably as well as various corporate and creative decisions through the years.

Click to expand...

It seems like it would be hard to base your creative identity on an accord which is present in most/all of your products. It also creates the possibility, especially in today's age, for competitors or knock-offs to have the same notes.

The h24 herbes vives is an interesting fragrance to me because it uses a sort-of recognizable and novel aromachemical which has to be licensed by its creator (Mane SA). I would assume it is difficult to imitate without the real thing, and points to an interesting future where novel and recognizable aromachemicals are used to differentiate rather than easily faked blends. One wonders if the 'real' fragrance houses are not fashion labels but Takasago, Givaudan, IFF, Firmenich and so on.

The only catch, of course, is these licensed aromachemicals have to smell good, and work in lots of fragrances; I like all the notes attributed to Guerlinade (I assume there is a hint of it in Heritage) but I doubt it would be suitable in Homme EDP, for example.

Fragrance is a weird world that exists between science, art, fashion, drug store aisles and car freshening trees, and it is amusing seeing these different interests try to exploit a sense which is so fickle and sensitive, but also non-specific and suggestible.

As with people, I care about quality, content and character--not labels.

Speaking of Takasago, everyone should read their marketing materials about fragrance trends:

China
the new perfume Eldorado
Driven by the Millennial generation, China is opening to new national specificities that brands need to adapt to: a huge craze for digital technologies with a very strong influence of KOLs, the search for new experiences, a will to reconcile mankind with the environment based on a relationship with ancestral Nature, but above all, the search for a new form of patriotism.

Click to expand...

Genderless
The Future Has No Gender
Gender as we know it is changing. Our culture is welcoming a third gender: non-binary. According to Tumbler, there are 112 known gender identities. Gender has become a spectrum instead of two sets of opposing ideals. Thinking about gender on a spectrum removes some of the pressures of having to fit into the prescribed roles of “masculine” or “feminine”.

Click to expand...

Yummy
New Pleasures, New Addictions
30 years after the launch of Angel by Thierry Mugler, lifestyles have evolved, and so did consumer habits & sources of pleasure. Covid 19 has been a true trend enhancer, driving aspirations to a green life & the new healthy.

What are the new gourmand addictions in perfumery?

Click to expand...

To see a list of fragrances Takasago is taking at least some credit for, see:

Brands including Matiere, Shiseido, Lempicka, Carven, Joop, Burberry, Paco Rabanne, Elie Saab.

Mr. Spritz said:

Speaking of Takasago, everyone should read their marketing materials about fragrance trends:

Inspiration & Trends

Introducing 'Inspiration & Trends' of Takasago International Corporation. Ohta-ku,Tokyo,Japan,The global Takasago organization maintains offices, production sites and R & D centers in 27 countries. Through our network of global research, production, creativity and marketing, we develop products...

www.takasago.com

To see a list of fragrances Takasago is taking at least some credit for, see:

Creations

Introducing 'Creations' of Takasago International Corporation. Ohta-ku,Tokyo,Japan,The global Takasago organization maintains offices, production sites and R & D centers in 27 countries. Through our network of global research, production, creativity and marketing, we develop products tailored to...

www.takasago.com

Brands including Matiere, Shiseido, Lempicka, Carven, Joop, Burberry, Paco Rabanne, Elie Saab.

Click to expand...

So Takasago is echoing the global market towards genderless bubblegum fragrances made with carbon-neutral cruelty-free materials.

Everyone will smell like biodegradable donuts and like it.

Varanis Ridari said:

So Takasago is echoing the global market towards genderless bubblegum fragrances made with carbon-neutral cruelty-free materials.

Everyone will smell like biodegradable donuts and like it.

Click to expand...

Come on man, you can’t argue with that ironclad tumblr data. Studies show by 2029 there will be over 1000 gender identities.

Forget that there is an incentive for them to be able to market their fragrances to 100% of the population, that’s just a coincidence.

To the OP - I do think that in general there are differences between brands and their aesthetic, but the space is muddied by the less creative brands who just copy the recent hot trend that is lucrative and can’t/won’t take more risks then that.

As usual, a lot of grey here, not much black/white

timetoexpress said:

Come on man, you can’t argue with that ironclad tumblr data. Studies show by 2029 there will be over 1000 gender identities.

Forget that there is an incentive for them to be able to market their fragrances to 100% of the population, that’s just a coincidence.

To the OP - I do think that in general there are differences between brands and their aesthetic, but the space is muddied by the less creative brands who just copy the recent hot trend that is lucrative and can’t/won’t take more risks then that.

As usual, a lot of grey here, not much black/white

Click to expand...

I'm not concerned by the number of genders or the gender/lack thereof in the end consumer, I just don't like the insistence that everyone wants to smell "delicious" because of it.

I'm not sure how everyone in these marketing spaces made the logic leap that unisex/genderless = smelling like food. As someone who has enby friends, you'd be surprised if I told you what they wear (ranges from Yatagan to Gucci Guilty for Women).

Although I bet this has more to do with targeting age demographics than gender. Kids and teens/young adults have seemed crazy about foody smells since the 2000's.

Also lmao @ tumblr. That place stopped being relevant when Verizon bought and flushed it.

Varanis Ridari said:

So Takasago is echoing the global market towards genderless bubblegum fragrances made with carbon-neutral cruelty-free materials.

Everyone will smell like biodegradable donuts and like it.

Click to expand...

Yep. But this is less about the reach of the global market than a dearth of imagination and a glut of lowest-common-denominator aspirations, a phenomenon aspirational brands should studiously avoid. I understand the desire to create the Coca-Cola of fragrances, but all we have to show for it is a stew of ethyl maltol and cynicism.

You can’t corner a market making the same stuff as everyone else. You need to be first to the Next Big Thing.

PStoller said:

Yep. But this is less about the reach of the global market than a dearth of imagination and a glut of lowest-common-denominator aspirations, a phenomenon aspirational brands should studiously avoid. I understand the desire to create the Coca-Cola of fragrances, but all we have to show for it is a stew of ethyl maltol and cynicism.

You can’t corner a market making the same stuff as everyone else. You need to be first to the Next Big Thing.

Click to expand...

Only when people tire of the current Big Thing™, which seems to have had little variation in the last 20 years, aside from moving the EQ sliders on this novel super-potent cheap material or that up and down.

I guess "we" as a buying public really have become That Stupid™ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Varanis Ridari said:

I'm not concerned by the number of genders or the gender/lack thereof in the end consumer, I just don't like the insistence that everyone wants to smell "delicious" because of it.

I'm not sure how everyone in these marketing spaces made the logic leap that unisex/genderless = smelling like food. As someone who has enby friends, you'd be surprised if I told you what they wear (ranges from Yatagan to Gucci Guilty for Women).

Although I bet this has more to do with targeting age demographics than gender. Kids and teens/young adults have seemed crazy about foody smells since the 2000's.

Also lmao @ tumblr. That place stopped being relevant when Verizon bought and flushed it.

Click to expand...

In case it wasn’t obvious i totally made up the future projected gender figures

Where’s the leap? Food is universal, you don’t see gender lines correlated with food preferences. Not sure why that’s a strange strategy for you given the simple fact that food appreciation knows no social boundaries.

You really think age could be the main driver of this? Don’t you think it’s moreso the internet providing visible exhibitions of extreme passion and food just happened to be an an easily relatable thing to obsess over? Not sure that falls across age lines, but I’m willing to hear a case for it.

Tumblr was relevant?

timetoexpress said:

In case it wasn’t obvious i totally made up the future projected gender figures

Where’s the leap? Food is universal, you don’t see gender lines correlated with food preferences. Not sure why that’s a strange strategy for you given the simple fact that food appreciation knows no social boundaries.

You really think age could be the main driver of this? Don’t you think it’s moreso the internet providing visible exhibitions of extreme passion and food just happened to be an an easily relatable thing to obsess over? Not sure that falls across age lines, but I’m willing to hear a case for it.

Tumblr was relevant?

Click to expand...

People historically didn't want to smell like dessert, at least not to this extreme if they did, even when gourmands first hit the scene in the wake of Angel's success. Maybe the internet and constant visual bombardment with decadence like food is a driver?

You surely have noticed with your time here, that our most vocal population here is older and hasn't been swayed by gourmands, and similar situations abound elsewhere on the internet if you look around (FB, Insta, YT, Fragrantica, X, so on), so I do think it is still generational to a degree.

I personally know few people 40 and up across my various networks IRL and online that fully go in on foodsmells dominating their perfume, barring maybe some citrus, fruit, or spice/herb notes that have crossed over from culinary to olfactive for centuries (eg. blackcurrant or nutmeg).

I'm just riffing here, so don't see this as argument; but the leap for me is the broad-stroke thinking that they must replace generations of variety among still-relevant styles with this monocultural foody style across all sectors globally just because of one or two smash hits in big (but culturally specific) markets?

It's as @PStoller said about the allure of trying to make the perfume equivalent of Coca-Cola.

I can understand the temptation, because industry for years has been geared towards short-term explosive gains, and capitalizing on zeitgeists (then optimizing everything), ergo all cars are SUVs and everything is a service with no ownership.

But perfume as a luxury item has seldom found luck operating on such populist terms for long, and when it has, the given style quickly becomes pedestrian, and moves downmarket into oblivion. We no longer even have the drugstores to sell this stuff when it does, thanks to extraneous stuff irrelevant to the thread.

Problem here is with nearly all perfume going this way, there won't be more-distinct alternatives, unless you count the brass cap $400 nonsense market which is itself stuffed full of failing hopefuls and headed to pop like a zit.

If everything below that price effectively becomes McDonald's, therein lies the problem. Either everyone likes it, or everyone doesn't and the whole merry-go-round comes crashing down.

All it takes is another BR540 that moves the needle towards something not food-related. So why homogenize and bank so hard on one-size-fits-all thinking and be left flat-footed when that surprise left-hook comes?

Something Something all your eggs, something something one basket, something something complete.

slpfrsly said:

Of course. That's what I'm doing. I'd like to think we all want to avoid the far too frequent typical locking of threads that happens when posts that are designed to disrupt and derail a thread aren't addressed.

I'm all about different opinions when they're constructive, add to a discussion etc. In this thread especially.

Click to expand...

like this?

slpfrsly said:

No, not explaining. It really doesn't require explaining.

.............

Click to expand...

The volume of verbiage relative to the amount of "explaining" is just calling out for another bs gif by @Varanis Ridari (imo).....

To the original question in the first post before the 87 detours...... No.

woodnotes55 said:

To the original question in the first post before the 87 detours...... No.

Click to expand...

Fascinating, but have you ever considered the counterpoint: yes