Why floods of new releases don’t do any good (Niche & Artisanal)

Guasón said:

Yes friend what you mention is very interesting; I can't access the numbers you comment... where can they be seen? I only find the following graphs.
Yuzu
View attachment 488714

I don't see any significant increase.

Oud
View attachment 488715

An increase especially since 2011 and then after a few years a more regular trend... although Oud note thing is a bit tricky... as I understand it the synthetic components that make up an unnatural Oud accord (the ones that have mooost of those fragrances) were developed in the early 2000s... therefore it is something very new, novel... that is obviously likely to be developed and implemented... such as Ambroxan:
View attachment 488716

Or the "Cashmere Wood":
View attachment 488717

And this kind of stuff... What a coincidence btw all with a very similar graphic... for the same reasons I think: they are novel synthetic components, cheap replacements, excellent diffusion, good fixatives etc etc and that are sold by the big fish of the business, Firmenich, IFF, Givaudan and family...

Looking at this graphs I or anyone can infer that the world's population loves Ambroxan and Cashmere? Is it that simple?

Let's look at a few more "oriental" notes apart from Yuzu.
Kumquat
View attachment 488718

Tea
View attachment 488720

Cherry
View attachment 488721

In any case... in any case... These data are interesting but they do not directly imply what is being suggested what I mentioned about cause and effect... What evidence do you have that an alleged increase in this or that olfactory note in the pyramids of fragrance notes is caused by an interest of brands to sell more in the Chinese market for example? What is the direct relationship? that most Asians like Yuzu? lol Come on come on let's be serious! With all due respect that's not a marketing strategy... it is an occurrence. Data, data, evidences, please, information....Although it doesn't matter if it's a mere opinion, but the way he speaks to me is quite misleading and that's why I ask... because I would love to see evidence, reports, data...

Click to expand...

There is a detailed search where you can take a note category & filter it by release year. The numbers are significant, we are talking 0 vs 936 (2023). Oriental & asian customers simply like having references from their own regions in a perfume, as they associate it with themselves in a sense that they grew up with these things, or at least that’s what the marketing thinks. And apparently it works because it’s selling great, they wouldn’t produce this much if it wasn’t the case. Me personally im asian myself lol & we do tend to buy things that are close to us & our culture Just a cultural thing I guess & marketing campaigns capitalize on it. And real Oud & Yuzu smells awesome. But sadly 90% of these releases are synthetic

Guasón said:

"their culture prohibits the open sharing of info online": Can you please explain and elaborate on what exactly you mean? Thank you!

Click to expand...

Oh, this is very simple, and doesn't require exact explanation to be readily understood. In China, the internet is regulated differently to Europe and America. It is less open/more restrictive with regard to the context of the point re: social media use, the online fragrance community and its norms, modern marketing techniques etc. Hopefully that clears it up for you. ✌

Schoeibksr said:

You have to take into account that the general amount of releases increased consistently from year to year as well. But, in the last years, Oud & Yuzu releases did increase by a lot.

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Also worth noting that a rise in the use of these ingredients doesn't necessarily imply a rise in pandering toward Asian tastes.

At least in the U.S., yuzu has been a big trend in flavoring over the last several years. We have yuzu in canned beverages, cocktails at bars, in desserts, and all over menus. I suppose it has that extra flair that lemon or citrus doesn't. Just a pinch of exoticism to make things seem a bit different (and it is delicious). I don't think it would garner the same interest in a market where yuzu is already common place.

You could say the same for oud, it's no secret that interest in oud in fragrance has exploded in the west over the last decade, as it garners a certain interest in the unfamiliar here that it wouldn't in the Middle East.

But @Guasón very rightfully points out this is all speculation on our part. We can make conclusions based on logic and observation, but we'd need stats to give these conclusions any weight of objectivity. We'd need to see that fragrances with Yuzu in the name increased sales in Asia over bergamot. Or consumer testing groups that show Asians prefer the light floral Dior Privee over the others etc.

Schoeibksr said:

There is a detailed search where you can take a note category & filter it by release year. The numbers are significant, we are talking 0 vs 936 (2023). Oriental & asian customers simply like having references from their own regions in a perfume, as they associate it with themselves in a sense that they grew up with these things, or at least that’s what the marketing thinks. And apparently it works because it’s selling great, they wouldn’t produce this much if it wasn’t the case. Me personally im asian myself lol & we do tend to buy things that are close to us & our culture Just a cultural thing I guess & marketing campaigns capitalize on it. And real Oud & Yuzu smells awesome. But sadly 90% of these releases are synthetic

Click to expand...

"Woah there, you can't just go saying things like that!!! Who knows why western fragrance brands are making more oriental fragrances!? It's simply impossible to know why this could be. Sure, you might be right - but have you considered the possibility that special Lunar New Year edition bottles are for western customers wanting a slice of orientalism in their life!?"

Good stats btw. Thanks for sharing. It's a shame but, as the reply you received shows, there's no amount of data, facts, or logic that will convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced. You provide the figures, and then they're not statistically significant, apparently (which is just ridiculous, as you point out). The goalposts will keep being moved because rhetoric and posturing (even when it's making appeals to objectivity haha!) can always dance around a logical, rational, truthful argument.

One relevant point, linking back to the actual discussion we're having and your OP, that comes out of the data you've shared: when many more brands are releasing fragrances with oud or yuzu (or any other note or accord), the novelty value and specialness of the early adopters and the note/accord itself decreases. For designer brands especially, this is bad news, and more reason why they are under serious threat. The Chinese market might roar for the next decade or two but that will only be a temporary avoidance of the issue European houses are facing, especially if the likes of PdM et al are able to follow them and establish a commercial presence and then status within China itself (many are already doing this with Asian customers living or working in Europe and America). More more more and the reign of quantity obscures the precarious position many big brands are in. Every brand having a yuzu fragrance is good for the customer in the short term, but the long term prospects are not looking peachy.

Thank you for your answers. Honestly I understand that someone can be a bit self-indulgent with their own opinions and more severe with those of others but sometimes I read very debatable categorical statements and when it comes to arguing a bit in depth they only refer to an obvious "obviousness" based on a superficial, personal and very external point of view and any argument against it seems to be comical... well, if we are talking about perfume reviews... whether a certain fragrance has neroli or not or very trivial or subjective aspects, so to speak, it is not so striking... but if a theory or a very elaborate point of view is put forward on the dimensions of what is mentioned here the least I expect is to be shown a coherent line of argument and some revisable data. Maybe I am too... punctilious? lol But I find it amazing and perplexed that someone can say that incontrovertible statistical evidence or something like that has been provided... that a statistic is shown showing the increase in the number of new "OUD" fragrances over the last few years in the world the only thing that can indicate is that there has been an increase in the number of oud fragrances over the last few years in the world, nothing more! And if absolutely nothing else is shown the relationship between it and what has been said about strategy, the Asian market etc etc remains a mere topic, a cliché! You can believe it or not, that's all.
I was actually curious and I would have liked it to be that way... that is why I have insisted several times on the showing of data or evidence... but not even a hint is being provided that this fact has happened!

What brands are we talking about? What "oriental" notes exactly? What is the percentage of perfumes with such notes compared to the rest? When did this change of strategy begin? What percentage of such perfumes are sold only in the Asian market and not globally? These would be interesting questions for example....
At this point what I find laughable is saying something like "it's obvious, the statistics shown speak for themselves, logically I can't provide you with more evidence or data because it's very difficult to obtain... but it's obvious..." Yeah. Well it's obvious to you not to me. It's your opinion. Respectable but also debatable. Thanks!

Schoeibksr says that "Oriental & asian customers simply like having references from their own regions in a perfume, as they associate it with themselves in a sense that they grew up with these things, or at least that’s what the marketing thinks. And apparently it works because it’s selling great, they wouldn’t produce this much if it wasn’t the case. I personally im asian myself lol & we do tend to buy things that are close to us & our culture Just a cultural thing I guess & marketing campaigns capitalize on it."
It's a very nice thing but it's just an opinion and a generalization. I know many Asians who are fed up with these kinds of notes and who want to discover new things and unknown cultures and I'm not going to infer that all Asians think the same!

In short... excuse these long comments I just wanted to check if what you mentioned had any verifiable basis or was just a personal opinion. Now it's clear to me.

Oh by the way, about:
Oh, this is very simple, and doesn't require an exact explanation to be readily understood. In China, the internet is regulated differently than Europe and America. It is less open/more restrictive with regard to the context of the point re: social media use, the online fragrance community and its norms, modern marketing techniques etc. Hopefully that clears it up for you. ✌

....I already know that the internet is regulated differently. What I don't understand is what you really mean. What knowledge do you have of perfume forums, communities, video platforms, social platforms like Weixin and various applications useful for spreading this type of information, reviews, videos...in China? I get the feeling again that you are only speaking superficially.

Guasón said:

therefore it is something very new, novel... that is obviously likely to be developed and implemented... such as Ambroxan:

Click to expand...

I kind of chuckle when I see ambroxan listed in an official note pyramid. feels like brands "saying the quiet part out loud."

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For those who are looking for facts and figures, I found the Dior annual report to be an interesting read. It includes this handy breakdown for where exactly they do most of their business. (The attached graphic is specifically for Parfums Christian Dior.)

• Asia makes up a declining share of revenue.
  • I wonder if the Middle East is "Asia" or "other markets"
• Check out those profits: €713MM in 2023

hollywoodforever said:

I kind of chuckle when I see ambroxan listed in an official note pyramid. feels like brands "saying the quiet part out loud."

---

For those who are looking for facts and figures, I found the Dior annual report to be an interesting read. It includes this handy breakdown for where exactly they do most of their business. (The attached graphic is specifically for Parfums Christian Dior.)

• Asia makes up a declining share of revenue.
  • I wonder if the Middle East is "Asia" or "other markets"
• Check out those profits: €713MM in 2023

View attachment 488817

https://www.dior-finance.com/pdf/d/2/910/Christian%20Dior%20Annual%20Report%20as%20of%20December%2031,%202023.pdf

Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks for posting. But be careful, adding more facts will make it harder to just say Guason is wrong.... because....

The thing I found most surprising in this is the low operating margin. The whole $2 of juice in a bottle selling for a lot would imply much higher margin. I recall LVMH was in mid to high 20's - but that was for everything not just fragrance, not sure I ever saw that broken out.....

Guasón said:

Thank you for your answers. Honestly I understand that someone can be a bit self-indulgent with their own opinions and more severe with those of others but sometimes I read very debatable categorical statements and when it comes to arguing a bit in depth they only refer to an obvious "obviousness" based on a superficial, personal and very external point of view and any argument against it seems to be comical... well, if we are talking about perfume reviews... whether a certain fragrance has neroli or not or very trivial or subjective aspects, so to speak, it is not so striking... but if a theory or a very elaborate point of view is put forward on the dimensions of what is mentioned here the least I expect is to be shown a coherent line of argument and some revisable data. Maybe I am too... punctilious? lol But I find it amazing and perplexed that someone can say that incontrovertible statistical evidence or something like that has been provided... that a statistic is shown showing the increase in the number of new "OUD" fragrances over the last few years in the world the only thing that can indicate is that there has been an increase in the number of oud fragrances over the last few years in the world, nothing more! And if absolutely nothing else is shown the relationship between it and what has been said about strategy, the Asian market etc etc remains a mere topic, a cliché! You can believe it or not, that's all.
I was actually curious and I would have liked it to be that way... that is why I have insisted several times on the showing of data or evidence... but not even a hint is being provided that this fact has happened!

What brands are we talking about? What "oriental" notes exactly? What is the percentage of perfumes with such notes compared to the rest? When did this change of strategy begin? What percentage of such perfumes are sold only in the Asian market and not globally? These would be interesting questions for example....
At this point what I find laughable is saying something like "it's obvious, the statistics shown speak for themselves, logically I can't provide you with more evidence or data because it's very difficult to obtain... but it's obvious..." Yeah. Well it's obvious to you not to me. It's your opinion. Respectable but also debatable. Thanks!

Schoeibksr says that "Oriental & asian customers simply like having references from their own regions in a perfume, as they associate it with themselves in a sense that they grew up with these things, or at least that’s what the marketing thinks. And apparently it works because it’s selling great, they wouldn’t produce this much if it wasn’t the case. I personally im asian myself lol & we do tend to buy things that are close to us & our culture Just a cultural thing I guess & marketing campaigns capitalize on it."
It's a very nice thing but it's just an opinion and a generalization. I know many Asians who are fed up with these kinds of notes and who want to discover new things and unknown cultures and I'm not going to infer that all Asians think the same!

In short... excuse these long comments I just wanted to check if what you mentioned had any verifiable basis or was just a personal opinion. Now it's clear to me.

Oh by the way, about:
Oh, this is very simple, and doesn't require an exact explanation to be readily understood. In China, the internet is regulated differently than Europe and America. It is less open/more restrictive with regard to the context of the point re: social media use, the online fragrance community and its norms, modern marketing techniques etc. Hopefully that clears it up for you. ✌

....I already know that the internet is regulated differently. What I don't understand is what you really mean. What knowledge do you have of perfume forums, communities, video platforms, social platforms like Weixin and various applications useful for spreading this type of information, reviews, videos...in China? I get the feeling again that you are only speaking superficially.

Click to expand...

Apart from @hollywoodforever providing you proof again that focus has shifted towards the asian market & me showing you the huge increase of asian notes in fragrances, let me get more in depth. Let’s look at some of the biggest asian markets, China :

International luxury brands like Chanel and Dior have traditionally dominated Chinas perfume market, but as chinese consumers show an increasing preference for “eastern“ scent notes, companies like L‘Oreal are choosing to invest in local chinese perfume brands.

Why’s that, and where’s the numbers, you may ask ?

Despite a relatively late start, China’s perfume and fragrance market has been catching up with the global market at full speed in recent years.
In 2021, retail sales of high-end perfume products in China recorded the fastest growth in a decade, pulling off an increase of 33% year-on-year – and leading market research institute Euromonitor International to dub 2021 the beginning of China’s “smell economy”.
On one hand, the prolonged impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic on mental health have contributed to the growth of the perfume market, with more young Chinese consumers seeking scented-based remedies to reduce anxiety and lift their mood.

On the other hand, strict Zero Covidprotocols such as wearing masks in public places and repeated lockdowns and stay-at-home orders have dampened the demand for make-up products like lipstick, and instead pushed consumption desire towards perfume and fragrance. Many young buyers feel that perfume not only satisfies their emotional needs but also expresses their individuality. As a result, cosmetics brands have been doing their best to readapt their offerings in response to the consumer shift.

Up until three years ago, international luxury brands dominated the Chinese perfume and fragrance landscape. But now the tables are turning, and the marketing is seeing the rise of homegrown perfume brands such as Documents, To Summer and Scent Library. These brands have been taking on traditional foreign perfume makers like Chanel and Jo Malone with unique Eastern scents. Unlike their Western counterparts, these Chinese brands are curating more subtle scents using oriental ingredients such as lotus, bamboo and mugwort (again, same could be applied to Oud, Saffron, Yuzu, …)These scents cater to the olfactory preferences of China’s young consumers, while also tapping into the Guochao trend,since the locally-grown plants are synonymous with Chinese literature and cultures, benefitting both branding and storytelling.

According to a recent survey of 1,400 regular perfume buyers by Chinese market research group iiMedia, over 60% were in favour of these Eastern aromas, which have “diversified their choices”. The responses also reflected that floral and fruity fragrances (EUROPEAN) were losing their appeal among savvy young Chinese consumers, who are constantly seeking “something different”. This has also created opportunities for local brands to capitalise on these so-called niche fragrances and resonate with their target audience.

In light of the market boom and the emergence of local market challengers, internationally renowned names have taken different steps to ensure that they don’t miss out on this market prospect. Earlier in September, global beauty giant L’Oréal saw the first venture of its China fund, Shanghai Meicifang Investment, go to Chinese luxury perfume house Documents, which is supported by L’Oréal’s corporate venture capital fund BOLD (Business Opportunities for L’Oréal’s Development).

Following this strategic move, L’Oréal also sought to grab a slice of the burgeoning market by bringing Prada’s first perfume store in China to Shanghai, opening a dedicated store in the upscale Réel Mall in Jing’an (L’Oréal Group is responsible for the creation, development and distribution of luxury beauty products for Prada). Also eyeing China’s perfume market potential is South Korean beauty brand Tamburins. Under the umbrella of luxury eyewear brand Gentle Monster, Tamburins debuted its first multifunctional perfume line on the brand’s WeChat mini program and one of China’s largest e-commerce platforms Tmall, just a few weeks ahead of China’s largest annual online shopping extravaganza, Singles’ Day (aka Double 11 or 11.11).

These shrewd moves have the potential to bear fruit in the long run, considering perfume and fragrance application is fast becoming part of the lifestyle lived by China’s Gen Z and Millennials, with people living in Tier 1 and Tier 2 cities unsurprisingly leading the consumption trend. This has produced an increasing number of regular perfume users, with over 60% aged between 24 and 40 years old reporting they use such products several times a week and 17.5% are wearing them on a daily basis, according to findings by iiMedia. In addition, restricted movement under China’s Zero Covid policy has broadened the range of potential consumer scenarios to include home fragrances, aromatherapy and body fragrances.

With applying perfume and fragrance becoming increasingly commonplace amongst China’s younger consumers, the market is projected to hit RMB 30 billion (£3.72 billion) by 2025. This demand has prompted both market-leading international brands and emerging local brands to constantly innovate their scent offerings. On top of this, it is crucial for market players to broaden their product ranges and double down on efforts to develop subcategories in order to cater to the varied needs of this lucrative demographic.

I wasn’t trying to be subjective in my earlier message, I just thought it was obvious & there would be no need to go in depth that much, since this is a perfume forum & my initial post was about something completely different. But there you to Let me know if you need more proof, I’ll gladly provide you that !

Schoeibksr said:

Apart from @hollywoodforever providing you proof again that focus has shifted towards the asian market & me showing you the huge increase of asian notes in fragrances, let me get more in depth. Let’s look at some of the biggest asian markets, China :

International luxury brands like Chanel and Dior have traditionally dominated Chinas perfume market, but as chinese consumers show an increasing preference for “eastern“ scent notes, companies like L‘Oreal are choosing to invest in local chinese perfume brands.

Why’s that, and where’s the numbers, you may ask ?

Despite a relatively late start, China’s perfume and fragrance market has been catching up with the global market at full speed in recent years.
In 2021, retail sales of high-end perfume products in China recorded the fastest growth in a decade, pulling off an increase of 33% year-on-year – and leading market research institute Euromonitor International to dub 2021 the beginning of China’s “smell economy”.
On one hand, the prolonged impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic on mental health have contributed to the growth of the perfume market, with more young Chinese consumers seeking scented-based remedies to reduce anxiety and lift their mood.

On the other hand, strict Zero Covidprotocols such as wearing masks in public places and repeated lockdowns and stay-at-home orders have dampened the demand for make-up products like lipstick, and instead pushed consumption desire towards perfume and fragrance. Many young buyers feel that perfume not only satisfies their emotional needs but also expresses their individuality. As a result, cosmetics brands have been doing their best to readapt their offerings in response to the consumer shift.

Up until three years ago, international luxury brands dominated the Chinese perfume and fragrance landscape. But now the tables are turning, and the marketing is seeing the rise of homegrown perfume brands such as Documents, To Summer and Scent Library. These brands have been taking on traditional foreign perfume makers like Chanel and Jo Malone with unique Eastern scents. Unlike their Western counterparts, these Chinese brands are curating more subtle scents using oriental ingredients such as lotus, bamboo and mugwort (again, same could be applied to Oud, Saffron, Yuzu, …)These scents cater to the olfactory preferences of China’s young consumers, while also tapping into the Guochao trend,since the locally-grown plants are synonymous with Chinese literature and cultures, benefitting both branding and storytelling.

According to a recent survey of 1,400 regular perfume buyers by Chinese market research group iiMedia, over 60% were in favour of these Eastern aromas, which have “diversified their choices”. The responses also reflected that floral and fruity fragrances (EUROPEAN) were losing their appeal among savvy young Chinese consumers, who are constantly seeking “something different”. This has also created opportunities for local brands to capitalise on these so-called niche fragrances and resonate with their target audience.

In light of the market boom and the emergence of local market challengers, internationally renowned names have taken different steps to ensure that they don’t miss out on this market prospect. Earlier in September, global beauty giant L’Oréal saw the first venture of its China fund, Shanghai Meicifang Investment, go to Chinese luxury perfume house Documents, which is supported by L’Oréal’s corporate venture capital fund BOLD (Business Opportunities for L’Oréal’s Development).

Following this strategic move, L’Oréal also sought to grab a slice of the burgeoning market by bringing Prada’s first perfume store in China to Shanghai, opening a dedicated store in the upscale Réel Mall in Jing’an (L’Oréal Group is responsible for the creation, development and distribution of luxury beauty products for Prada). Also eyeing China’s perfume market potential is South Korean beauty brand Tamburins. Under the umbrella of luxury eyewear brand Gentle Monster, Tamburins debuted its first multifunctional perfume line on the brand’s WeChat mini program and one of China’s largest e-commerce platforms Tmall, just a few weeks ahead of China’s largest annual online shopping extravaganza, Singles’ Day (aka Double 11 or 11.11).

These shrewd moves have the potential to bear fruit in the long run, considering perfume and fragrance application is fast becoming part of the lifestyle lived by China’s Gen Z and Millennials, with people living in Tier 1 and Tier 2 cities unsurprisingly leading the consumption trend. This has produced an increasing number of regular perfume users, with over 60% aged between 24 and 40 years old reporting they use such products several times a week and 17.5% are wearing them on a daily basis, according to findings by iiMedia. In addition, restricted movement under China’s Zero Covid policy has broadened the range of potential consumer scenarios to include home fragrances, aromatherapy and body fragrances.

With applying perfume and fragrance becoming increasingly commonplace amongst China’s younger consumers, the market is projected to hit RMB 30 billion (£3.72 billion) by 2025. This demand has prompted both market-leading international brands and emerging local brands to constantly innovate their scent offerings. On top of this, it is crucial for market players to broaden their product ranges and double down on efforts to develop subcategories in order to cater to the varied needs of this lucrative demographic.

I wasn’t trying to be subjective in my earlier message, I just thought it was obvious & there would be no need to go in depth that much, since this is a perfume forum & my initial post was about something completely different. But there you to Let me know if you need more proof, I’ll gladly provide you that !

Click to expand...

You know what, let‘s add a little more :
According to statista.com :

• In 2024, the revenue in the Fragrances market in Asia is projected to reach a staggering amount of US$12.23bn.
• This market segment is expected to witness a steady annual growth rate of 3.03% (CAGR 2024-2028).
• In Asia, the fragrance market in Japan is heavily influenced by traditional scents such as cherry blossom and green tea (and, probably also Yuzu ).

Schoeibksr said:

Apart from @hollywoodforever providing you proof again that focus has shifted towards the asian market & me showing you the huge increase of asian notes in fragrances, let me get more in depth. Let’s look at some of the biggest asian markets, China :

International luxury brands like Chanel and Dior have traditionally dominated Chinas perfume market, but as chinese consumers show an increasing preference for “eastern“ scent notes, companies like L‘Oreal are choosing to invest in local chinese perfume brands.

Why’s that, and where’s the numbers, you may ask ?

Despite a relatively late start, China’s perfume and fragrance market has been catching up with the global market at full speed in recent years.
In 2021, retail sales of high-end perfume products in China recorded the fastest growth in a decade, pulling off an increase of 33% year-on-year – and leading market research institute Euromonitor International to dub 2021 the beginning of China’s “smell economy”.
On one hand, the prolonged impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic on mental health have contributed to the growth of the perfume market, with more young Chinese consumers seeking scented-based remedies to reduce anxiety and lift their mood.

On the other hand, strict Zero Covidprotocols such as wearing masks in public places and repeated lockdowns and stay-at-home orders have dampened the demand for make-up products like lipstick, and instead pushed consumption desire towards perfume and fragrance. Many young buyers feel that perfume not only satisfies their emotional needs but also expresses their individuality. As a result, cosmetics brands have been doing their best to readapt their offerings in response to the consumer shift.

Up until three years ago, international luxury brands dominated the Chinese perfume and fragrance landscape. But now the tables are turning, and the marketing is seeing the rise of homegrown perfume brands such as Documents, To Summer and Scent Library. These brands have been taking on traditional foreign perfume makers like Chanel and Jo Malone with unique Eastern scents. Unlike their Western counterparts, these Chinese brands are curating more subtle scents using oriental ingredients such as lotus, bamboo and mugwort (again, same could be applied to Oud, Saffron, Yuzu, …)These scents cater to the olfactory preferences of China’s young consumers, while also tapping into the Guochao trend,since the locally-grown plants are synonymous with Chinese literature and cultures, benefitting both branding and storytelling.

According to a recent survey of 1,400 regular perfume buyers by Chinese market research group iiMedia, over 60% were in favour of these Eastern aromas, which have “diversified their choices”. The responses also reflected that floral and fruity fragrances (EUROPEAN) were losing their appeal among savvy young Chinese consumers, who are constantly seeking “something different”. This has also created opportunities for local brands to capitalise on these so-called niche fragrances and resonate with their target audience.

In light of the market boom and the emergence of local market challengers, internationally renowned names have taken different steps to ensure that they don’t miss out on this market prospect. Earlier in September, global beauty giant L’Oréal saw the first venture of its China fund, Shanghai Meicifang Investment, go to Chinese luxury perfume house Documents, which is supported by L’Oréal’s corporate venture capital fund BOLD (Business Opportunities for L’Oréal’s Development).

Following this strategic move, L’Oréal also sought to grab a slice of the burgeoning market by bringing Prada’s first perfume store in China to Shanghai, opening a dedicated store in the upscale Réel Mall in Jing’an (L’Oréal Group is responsible for the creation, development and distribution of luxury beauty products for Prada). Also eyeing China’s perfume market potential is South Korean beauty brand Tamburins. Under the umbrella of luxury eyewear brand Gentle Monster, Tamburins debuted its first multifunctional perfume line on the brand’s WeChat mini program and one of China’s largest e-commerce platforms Tmall, just a few weeks ahead of China’s largest annual online shopping extravaganza, Singles’ Day (aka Double 11 or 11.11).

These shrewd moves have the potential to bear fruit in the long run, considering perfume and fragrance application is fast becoming part of the lifestyle lived by China’s Gen Z and Millennials, with people living in Tier 1 and Tier 2 cities unsurprisingly leading the consumption trend. This has produced an increasing number of regular perfume users, with over 60% aged between 24 and 40 years old reporting they use such products several times a week and 17.5% are wearing them on a daily basis, according to findings by iiMedia. In addition, restricted movement under China’s Zero Covid policy has broadened the range of potential consumer scenarios to include home fragrances, aromatherapy and body fragrances.

With applying perfume and fragrance becoming increasingly commonplace amongst China’s younger consumers, the market is projected to hit RMB 30 billion (£3.72 billion) by 2025. This demand has prompted both market-leading international brands and emerging local brands to constantly innovate their scent offerings. On top of this, it is crucial for market players to broaden their product ranges and double down on efforts to develop subcategories in order to cater to the varied needs of this lucrative demographic.

I wasn’t trying to be subjective in my earlier message, I just thought it was obvious & there would be no need to go in depth that much, since this is a perfume forum & my initial post was about something completely different. But there you to Let me know if you need more proof, I’ll gladly provide you that !

Click to expand...

Honestly, that's some great work and I admire your patience, but I don't think they're ever going to accept it. The demand for data and objectivity isn't genuine - if it were, it wouldn't refute the stats you've provided, because they're clearly significant. Endlessly quibbling over why e.g. Japanese customers would want or prefer Japanese fragrances is one of two things: it's either contrarian rebuttal for the sake of it (which is perhaps entertaining or invigorating but quickly becomes tiresome), or it's coming from a reality-denying set of ideas about the universal sameness of people that means no difference or distinction can even be discussed as it violates said belief system.

If we get bogged down trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced, the thread simply gets stuck and the discussion goes nowhere.

Instead, I think it's interesting to keep focus on your original post and what more releases (both artisanal and niche) means in light of the shifts we're discussing (rather than trying to debate whether they're actually happening, which is a dead end for reasons previously given).

One fascinating point you raise is that it will be eastern brands themselves that could end up replacing French fashion houses in catering to Asian customers. That could be a point of tension in the coming years. If the big multinationals like L'Oreal or LVMH buy up these Asian brands, then maybe it is more of the same as we've seen with many European houses becoming just another node in the wider organism of the beauty conglomerate that disseminates products with little individual distinction from their (supposed) market competition. However, if Asian perfume businesses can remain independent or part of an Asian beauty conglomerate, they might be able to go beyond the derivative imitation of existing fragrances and aromachemicals developed by the likes of Givaudan and Firmenich. That then puts them in more direct competition with western fashion brands and also makes them far less dependent on them for survival (as per my lions vs hyenas analogy). This is especially pertinent given the ongoing antitrust investigation in to some of the biggest players in western perfumery: https://www.reuters.com/markets/eur...s-4-firms-fragrances-cartel-probe-2023-03-08/

The long term picture is intriguing.

The demand for data and objectivity isn't genuine - if it were, it wouldn't rebut the stats you've provided, because they're clearly significant.

Haha slpfrsly I wonder what you would say if I were you and you were me...

You must understand that you have not provided anywhere near the evidence in relation to what I was asking you and that it would be good if you took a more patient and constructive position, because in addition... this is a forum for everyone, not just those who THINK the same as you.

I really appreciate the information provided, it is very interesting... at least now we are handling some information or data. However, I think we are mixing things up and going too far... I do not doubt nor have any interest in refuting some of the information that has been put forward; in fact I think I have been quite precise and I have always put the point of view of my interest only in the supposed change of strategy of the big brands to produce more perfumes with "oriental" notes, nothing more. Here nobody is doubting that the Chinese market is appetizing... that the young Chinese generations seem to be increasingly fond of fragrances... or coffee... or sales... or margins... or profits... I repeat: at least I have put the point of view of my interest only in the supposed change of strategy of the big brands to produce more perfumes with oriental notes. It is understood, right? Note how precise I have been that I do not even mention the production of lighter and less dense perfumes for the Asian market, no. I am referring to something that was argued here at the end of the day: the increase in oriental notes and obviously how this relates to the interest of the big brands in growing in the Asian market. Because of course, I can be a demagogue and show the graph of the new launches with the Cashmere wood note showing an enormous increase in recent years and claim that the big brands wanted to try to increase their sales among cabinetmakers or foresters or chess players or whatever... yes, it is a silly example but in any case it is obvious that something more is needed. And how can you show me the graph of Yuzu then I can show you the graph of tea, cherry, kumquat to tell you the opposite! It is a very poor argument...

I am very imaginative and I thought that you were going to get a report from LVMH regarding its marketing strategy or an anonymous source... some big manager or something like that, something very juicy... my mistake

Regarding the text you copied, which I read in the link
I don't know if you got it from another source, at least I found it there. It is mentioned that "According to a recent survey of 1,400 regular perfume buyers by Chinese market research group iiMedia, over 60% were in favour of these Eastern aromas, which have “diversified their choices”. The responses also reflected that floral and fruity fragrances were losing their appeal among savvy young Chinese consumers, who are constantly seeking “something different”.
I am not a statistician, as I have already said, but the Chinese population between 20-50 years old is almost 40% of the total, that is, 600 million. Well, out of 1,400 people, 60% are in favour of "Eastern aromas", whatever that is. It is all very vague and contradictory. It also says "floral and fruity fragrances were losing their appeal" which is another vague generalisation and, on the other hand, I don't know... yuzu and cherry are fruits, the cherry blossom is a flower... no?
Weren't you talking about cherry and yuzu?

But the most curious thing is that the article also mentions 3 Chinese brands: Documents, To Summer and Scent Library.
Well, let's get to the bottom of the matter here, out of curiosity:

Documents
https://www.nosetime.com/pinpai/10075036-documents.html

Naive
Highlights: Grass, peach, lime and gardenia.
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Lay
Highlights: Grass, anise, basil, white rosin
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Stubborn
Highlights: Leather, agarwood ebony, smoke, black pepper
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? we can accept "agarwood ebony" whatever that is no? and goji berries!

Sensitive
Highlights: Japanese grapefruit, chamomile, guaiac wood, benzoin
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? Japanese grapefruit!

Shy
Top notes: Juniper berries, moss, mint, citrus
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Excite
Top notes: Champagne, pineapple, blackcurrant, cognac
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? Goji berries!

Think
Top notes: Walnut, tea, pink pepper
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? We accept tea, right? even if the new launches graph goes down, right? .. ok

Mean
Top notes: Rose, coriander, grass, peony
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Wonder
Top notes: Tea, ginger, bergamot, cardamom
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? We accept tea, right? Even if it's older than the sliced bread, right? ok

Off
Highlights: Jasmine, musk, vetiver, sage
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

To summer
https://www.nosetime.com/pinpai/10035730-to-summer-guanxia.html


Cedarwood
Highlights: Cedar, rose, pine, bergamot
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Triple Tea
Highlights: Tea, brown sugar, mint, papyrus
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? We accept tea, right? even though the graph goes down and it's older than flies, right? ... ok

Nude
Highlights: Cotton, water lily, pear, ambergris
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Bitters
Highlights: bitter orange, cedar, black pepper, grapefruit
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Tipsy rose
Highlights: Rhubarb, rose, patchouli, wood
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Osmanthus
Highlights: Osmanthus, peach, oil, rose
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? Well, unless it's osmanthus...

Ink
Highlights: Ink, sandalwood, iris, cedar
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Orange dive
Highlights: Watermelon, tangerine, lemon, blackcurrant
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? Tea? Shall we move on to tea, shall we? Ok?

Scent library
https://www.nosetime.com/pinpai/10094769-scent-library.html

There are 2 or 3... you see...

My conclusion is: this article is a joke!! Where are the fabulous new national oriental notes? In fact, now that I think about it... do these brands belong to the big European fashion brands? Because that's what was being talked about here...

On the other hand, slpfrsly I am not going to ask you again the question about "perfume forums, communities, video platforms, social platforms like Weixin and various applications useful for spreading this type of information, reviews, videos...in China" You hasn't even mentioned it because I think you have no idea about that... but hey is just an opinion...

Guasón said:

Haha slpfrsly I wonder what you would say if I were you and you were me...

Click to expand...

One can dream...

Guasón said:

You must understand that you have not provided anywhere near the evidence in relation to what I was asking you

Click to expand...

Naturally, dear Gauson. It is simply impossible for me or indeed anyone to meet your demands. You argue from ignorance - argumentum ad ignorantiam - where the barometer for truth is whether or not you are convinced. "Prove it, prove it" is the cry; "justify everything you know and believe to my shifting standards of evidence otherwise you are wrong! Wronggggg!!!"

Guasón said:

it would be good if you took a more patient and constructive position

Click to expand...

Dear chap, I will reply in kind when I receive something patient and constructive from you. At present, your attempts to pilpul this point are veering the discussion off topic. If your desire is simply to declare me a xenophobe and a bigot, then please, let us rush to the end and be done with it.

Guasón said:

because in addition... this is a forum for everyone, not just those who THINK the same as you.

Click to expand...

The way to engage with someone you disagree with is to provide an alternative argument. Thesis and counter thesis. For example, one poster recently suggested the reason for more obviously Asian styles and notes in perfumery was not due to Asian preferences but rather western customers seeking exoticism! Yes, that's right: it's Sarah in Brooklyn and Klaus in Copenhagen who are responsible for Lunar New Year special edition bottles of perfume! The provision of this counterargument allows us to discuss: is this the more probably explanation for the changes we see in perfumery, or is it because Asian customers want Asian fragrances?

Sadly, despite your lengthy posts, there's no hint of an argument, merely contrarian rebuttal and shifting demands. Forgive me not not playing along with you (and pity @Schoeibksr for his honest efforts to help illuminate your lack of credulity on this matter).

Schoeibksr said:

Apart from @hollywoodforever providing you proof again that focus has shifted towards the asian market & me showing you the huge increase of asian notes in fragrances, let me get more in depth. Let’s look at some of the biggest asian markets, China :

International luxury brands like Chanel and Dior have traditionally dominated Chinas perfume market, but as chinese consumers show an increasing preference for “eastern“ scent notes, companies like L‘Oreal are choosing to invest in local chinese perfume brands.

Why’s that, and where’s the numbers, you may ask ?

Despite a relatively late start, China’s perfume and fragrance market has been catching up with the global market at full speed in recent years.
In 2021, retail sales of high-end perfume products in China recorded the fastest growth in a decade, pulling off an increase of 33% year-on-year – and leading market research institute Euromonitor International to dub 2021 the beginning of China’s “smell economy”.
On one hand, the prolonged impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic on mental health have contributed to the growth of the perfume market, with more young Chinese consumers seeking scented-based remedies to reduce anxiety and lift their mood.

On the other hand, strict Zero Covidprotocols such as wearing masks in public places and repeated lockdowns and stay-at-home orders have dampened the demand for make-up products like lipstick, and instead pushed consumption desire towards perfume and fragrance. Many young buyers feel that perfume not only satisfies their emotional needs but also expresses their individuality. As a result, cosmetics brands have been doing their best to readapt their offerings in response to the consumer shift.

Up until three years ago, international luxury brands dominated the Chinese perfume and fragrance landscape. But now the tables are turning, and the marketing is seeing the rise of homegrown perfume brands such as Documents, To Summer and Scent Library. These brands have been taking on traditional foreign perfume makers like Chanel and Jo Malone with unique Eastern scents. Unlike their Western counterparts, these Chinese brands are curating more subtle scents using oriental ingredients such as lotus, bamboo and mugwort (again, same could be applied to Oud, Saffron, Yuzu, …)These scents cater to the olfactory preferences of China’s young consumers, while also tapping into the Guochao trend,since the locally-grown plants are synonymous with Chinese literature and cultures, benefitting both branding and storytelling.

According to a recent survey of 1,400 regular perfume buyers by Chinese market research group iiMedia, over 60% were in favour of these Eastern aromas, which have “diversified their choices”. The responses also reflected that floral and fruity fragrances (EUROPEAN) were losing their appeal among savvy young Chinese consumers, who are constantly seeking “something different”. This has also created opportunities for local brands to capitalise on these so-called niche fragrances and resonate with their target audience.

Click to expand...

I would just add that given the information you are presenting here, yuzu and oud, as the marketing of these notes has been used as examples in the past posts, would likely not be considered traditional Chinese notes, and so the numbers that show and increase in those notes from sites like parfumo don't necessarily support the argument that those notes are used to cater more to Chinese or clients in other Asian markets. Also, both parfumo and Fragrantica are not up to date with brands from China and Japan that aren't sold or are popular outside of those markets. The notes that are used for popular perfumes in those markets would not be reflected in statistics from those sites.

Of course the great conglomerates will try to adapt to the local tastes in a big market like China, they do this in many other product categories, it is part of why all the big brands have limited edition lunar new year products these days. And they are sold in stores across the world as people shop for luxury goods when they travel. Adapting to local preferences happens in all big markets, some fragrances are more targeted to the Brazilian market which is another big one or France or the US. This shouldn't be controversial.

A fairly well developed market with both foreign and domestic brands in Asia is Japan, and the most popular fragrances there are light florals and soapy. Here is a list of popular fragrances in Japan right now. This is related to the local cultural practices and preferences in some way of course, but it shows that it doesn't mean that local preferences mostly are fragrances that smell like hinoki, mirin, ume or hiba, ie. "Japanese" sounding notes.

@hollywoodforever those Dior numbers may also show increased domestic luxury consumption in China in 2022 due to covid restrictions, and the current distribution may be more in line with pre covid numbers, especially since they are from Dior which gets a lot of sales from airports and Chinese tourists in Europe and Japan. One thing we learned from covid is that a lot of EU luxury consumption comes from Asian tourism. Recently, the luxury market in Japan is being propped up by Chinese consumers benefitting from extremely cheap yen. I'm presuming this goes for fragrances too to a great extent.

baklavaRuzh said:

I would just add that given the information you are presenting here, yuzu and oud, as the marketing of these notes has been used as examples in the past posts, would likely not be considered traditional Chinese notes, and so the numbers that show and increase in those notes from sites like parfumo don't necessarily support the argument that those notes are used to cater more to Chinese or clients in other Asian markets. Also, both parfumo and Fragrantica are not up to date with brands from China and Japan that aren't sold or are popular outside of those markets. The notes that are used for popular perfumes in those markets would not be reflected in statistics from those sites.

Click to expand...

Yes, fine, yuzu is more appropriate to talk about Japan than China. This is true. Perhaps I am responsible for this as I used oud and yuzu as specific examples that span Asia from west to east. Another reason for using these two notes as shorthand for the trend is because of Guerlain's new fragrance named after those two notes - an explicit example of this pan-Asian strategy (even if more regional variation in preferences exist).

Let's not forget that we're responding to people who want to deny basic reality without providing a counterargument.

Per Statista, which has helpfully been shared already:

Guasón said:

The demand for data and objectivity isn't genuine - if it were, it wouldn't rebut the stats you've provided, because they're clearly significant.

Haha slpfrsly I wonder what you would say if I were you and you were me...

You must understand that you have not provided anywhere near the evidence in relation to what I was asking you and that it would be good if you took a more patient and constructive position, because in addition... this is a forum for everyone, not just those who THINK the same as you.

I really appreciate the information provided, it is very interesting... at least now we are handling some information or data. However, I think we are mixing things up and going too far... I do not doubt nor have any interest in refuting some of the information that has been put forward; in fact I think I have been quite precise and I have always put the point of view of my interest only in the supposed change of strategy of the big brands to produce more perfumes with "oriental" notes, nothing more. Here nobody is doubting that the Chinese market is appetizing... that the young Chinese generations seem to be increasingly fond of fragrances... or coffee... or sales... or margins... or profits... I repeat: at least I have put the point of view of my interest only in the supposed change of strategy of the big brands to produce more perfumes with oriental notes. It is understood, right? Note how precise I have been that I do not even mention the production of lighter and less dense perfumes for the Asian market, no. I am referring to something that was argued here at the end of the day: the increase in oriental notes and obviously how this relates to the interest of the big brands in growing in the Asian market. Because of course, I can be a demagogue and show the graph of the new launches with the Cashmere wood note showing an enormous increase in recent years and claim that the big brands wanted to try to increase their sales among cabinetmakers or foresters or chess players or whatever... yes, it is a silly example but in any case it is obvious that something more is needed. And how can you show me the graph of Yuzu then I can show you the graph of tea, cherry, kumquat to tell you the opposite! It is a very poor argument...

I am very imaginative and I thought that you were going to get a report from LVMH regarding its marketing strategy or an anonymous source... some big manager or something like that, something very juicy... my mistake

Regarding the text you copied, which I read in the link

Is perfume the next big market for luxury brands in China? - Focus - China Britain Business Council

Brands like Chanel are starting to pay attention to trends in China's perfume market, spurred on by consumer behaviour

focus.cbbc.org

I don't know if you got it from another source, at least I found it there. It is mentioned that "According to a recent survey of 1,400 regular perfume buyers by Chinese market research group iiMedia, over 60% were in favour of these Eastern aromas, which have “diversified their choices”. The responses also reflected that floral and fruity fragrances were losing their appeal among savvy young Chinese consumers, who are constantly seeking “something different”.
I am not a statistician, as I have already said, but the Chinese population between 20-50 years old is almost 40% of the total, that is, 600 million. Well, out of 1,400 people, 60% are in favour of "Eastern aromas", whatever that is. It is all very vague and contradictory. It also says "floral and fruity fragrances were losing their appeal" which is another vague generalisation and, on the other hand, I don't know... yuzu and cherry are fruits, the cherry blossom is a flower... no?
Weren't you talking about cherry and yuzu?

But the most curious thing is that the article also mentions 3 Chinese brands: Documents, To Summer and Scent Library.
Well, let's get to the bottom of the matter here, out of curiosity:

Documents
https://www.nosetime.com/pinpai/10075036-documents.html

Naive
Highlights: Grass, peach, lime and gardenia.
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Lay
Highlights: Grass, anise, basil, white rosin
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Stubborn
Highlights: Leather, agarwood ebony, smoke, black pepper
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? we can accept "agarwood ebony" whatever that is no? and goji berries!

Sensitive
Highlights: Japanese grapefruit, chamomile, guaiac wood, benzoin
Any new oriental eye catcher notes whatever you want to call them? Japanese grapefruit!

Shy
Top notes: Juniper berries, moss, mint, citrus
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Excite
Top notes: Champagne, pineapple, blackcurrant, cognac
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? Goji berries!

Think
Top notes: Walnut, tea, pink pepper
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? We accept tea, right? even if the new launches graph goes down, right? .. ok

Mean
Top notes: Rose, coriander, grass, peony
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Wonder
Top notes: Tea, ginger, bergamot, cardamom
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? We accept tea, right? Even if it's older than the sliced bread, right? ok

Off
Highlights: Jasmine, musk, vetiver, sage
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

To summer
https://www.nosetime.com/pinpai/10035730-to-summer-guanxia.html


Cedarwood
Highlights: Cedar, rose, pine, bergamot
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Triple Tea
Highlights: Tea, brown sugar, mint, papyrus
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? We accept tea, right? even though the graph goes down and it's older than flies, right? ... ok

Nude
Highlights: Cotton, water lily, pear, ambergris
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Bitters
Highlights: bitter orange, cedar, black pepper, grapefruit
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Tipsy rose
Highlights: Rhubarb, rose, patchouli, wood
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Osmanthus
Highlights: Osmanthus, peach, oil, rose
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? Well, unless it's osmanthus...

Ink
Highlights: Ink, sandalwood, iris, cedar
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? I don't see any

Orange dive
Highlights: Watermelon, tangerine, lemon, blackcurrant
Any new oriental eye catcher notes, whatever you want to call them? Tea? Shall we move on to tea, shall we? Ok?

Scent library
https://www.nosetime.com/pinpai/10094769-scent-library.html

There are 2 or 3... you see...

My conclusion is: this article is a joke!! Where are the fabulous new national oriental notes? In fact, now that I think about it... do these brands belong to the big European fashion brands? Because that's what was being talked about here...

On the other hand, I am not going to ask you again the question about "perfume forums, communities, video platforms, social platforms like Weixin and various applications useful for spreading this type of information, reviews, videos...in China" because my opinion is that you have no idea about that...

Click to expand...

This will be a endless war of data vs data (your‘s simply being „your data is not good enough“) & I’m not here for it. You’re still doubtful, which is good & funny at the same time. We can provide you with thousands of obvious data, but you will still neglect it & try to turn it around by saying the data is not good enough. Even if Dior & other big brands tell you MOST OF OUR MONEY COMES FROM ASIA.

You said „I can be a demagogue and show the graph of the new launches with the Cashmere wood note showing an enormous increase in recent years“
Well, no you couldn’t, as most brands simply haven‘t been mentioning most of the synthetics, including cashmere wood, ambrocenide & many other disgusting synthetics their perfumes are made off. In european perfumery, most of the fragrances are made of way too many synthetics to list all of them, so even when it is listed, you would still leave out all the other ones that could have possibly been used. And, to top it off, when has a synthetic note like cashmere wood been used as a marketing tool ? When was it focused by a big brand ?
But even then, what is this comparison ? You’re comparing a synthetic wood that doesn’t relate to a special region to notes like Yuzu or Oud, which clearly have one.

You say „And how can you show me the graph of Yuzu then I can show you the graph of tea, cherry, kumquat to tell you the opposite! It is a very poor argument“

Well, simply do it then, since you haven’t provided ANY significant data to disproof of what we’re saying yourself ? All you do is look at ours & just doubt it or call it bad ?

„I thought that you were going to get a report from LVMH regarding its marketing strategy“ You don’t need a word from them if you put your eyes on the data which has been provided. You can see the huge profit from Asia, the huge increase of asian & oriental notes in their releases, the article quoted which had asians telling their preferences… Shouldn’t all of this be enough to be able to say that the focus has indeed shifted ? Like what else do you want from me

„Well, out of 1,400 people, 60% are in favour of "Eastern aromas", whatever that is. It is all very vague and contradictory.“
It seems like this particular number from this particular source regarding this particular asian country is too small for you. Well yes, it is small, but still, it is backed up by multiple other factors. I can only repeat the given data again :

According to statista.com :

• In 2024, the revenue in the Fragrances market in Asia is projected to reach a staggering amount of US$12.23bn.
• This market segment is expected to witness a steady annual growth rate of 3.03% (CAGR 2024-2028).
• In Asia, the fragrance market in Japan is heavily influenced by traditional scents such as cherry blossom and green tea (and, probably also Yuzu ).

Dior :

Dior not enough for ya ? Let‘s take LVMH perfume & cosmetics stats in general (from LVMH themselves) :

Asia & Japan together are 38% & therefore their biggest market. And I’m not even including the „Other markets“ where “oriental“ countries play a significant part as well.

Who’s sources are a “joke“ now ?

In your last part, or should I say the attempt of a “finishing move“, you looked at the 3 brands you probably never heard of that were mentioned in the article, and looked at the notes of their perfumes. Wow, man. You my friend are the one who generalizes this big topic by taking some brands like this & looking away from big ones like Guerlain, Louis Vuitton & many others, who CLEARLY use Yuzu & Oud & advertise with it to please the asian market. I can do the same & refute what you are saying by listing fragrances from actual big names that we all know (I already did before in this thread).

All of this was given to you, including the huge increase of these notes, but you still always ignore these informations or play them down. Guys like you just love to disagree & have nothing significant to support their claims I guess.

baklavaRuzh said:

I would just add that given the information you are presenting here, yuzu and oud, as the marketing of these notes has been used as examples in the past posts, would likely not be considered traditional Chinese notes, and so the numbers that show and increase in those notes from sites like parfumo don't necessarily support the argument that those notes are used to cater more to Chinese or clients in other Asian markets. Also, both parfumo and Fragrantica are not up to date with brands from China and Japan that aren't sold or are popular outside of those markets. The notes that are used for popular perfumes in those markets would not be reflected in statistics from those sites.

Of course the great conglomerates will try to adapt to the local tastes in a big market like China, they do this in many other product categories, it is part of why all the big brands have limited edition lunar new year products these days. And they are sold in stores across the world as people shop for luxury goods when they travel. Adapting to local preferences happens in all big markets, some fragrances are more targeted to the Brazilian market which is another big one or France or the US. This shouldn't be controversial.

A fairly well developed market with both foreign and domestic brands in Asia is Japan, and the most popular fragrances there are light florals and soapy. Here is a list of popular fragrances in Japan right now. This is related to the local cultural practices and preferences in some way of course, but it shows that it doesn't mean that local preferences mostly are fragrances that smell like hinoki, mirin, ume or hiba, ie. "Japanese" sounding notes.

@hollywoodforever those Dior numbers may also show increased domestic luxury consumption in China in 2022 due to covid restrictions, and the current distribution may be more in line with pre covid numbers, especially since they are from Dior which gets a lot of sales from airports and Chinese tourists in Europe and Japan. One thing we learned from covid is that a lot of EU luxury consumption comes from Asian tourism. Recently, the luxury market in Japan is being propped up by Chinese consumers benefitting from extremely cheap yen. I'm presuming this goes for fragrances too to a great extent.

Click to expand...

„yuzu and oud… not be considered traditional Chinese notes“
China is & has been one of the biggest markets for oud. There are even agarwood trees planted there that produce the actual resin.

The yuzu originated and grew wild in Tibet and central China. It was introduced to Japan and Korea during the Tang dynasty and is still cultivated there.

I could expand both of these notes & their connections to multiple countries in asia or the middle east as well, but think there’s no need to. What I’m trying to say here is : It is obvious that the fragrance industry capitalizes on this, as Asia is the biggest market. And as I showed earlier, it is reflected in the huge increase of these notes within big houses from LVMH.

Like isn’t this enough ?

I’m predicting he will still find a way to talk around these things without providing any significant data because he is just a stubborn & desperate individual who simply likes to disagree. This is becoming a waste of time. This thread was about something completely different but here he is looking at this one little thing someone mentioned as a side note & makes a big war about it.
But bring it on, in case you should really have something significant to say, I will gladly keep this going.

Schoeibksr said:

„yuzu and oud… not be considered traditional Chinese notes“
China is & has been one of the biggest markets for oud. There are even agarwood trees planted there that produce the actual resin.

The yuzu originated and grew wild in Tibet and central China. It was introduced to Japan and Korea during the Tang dynasty and is still cultivated there.

I could expand both of these notes & their connections to multiple countries in asia or the middle east as well, but think there’s no need to. What I’m trying to say here is : It is obvious that the fragrance industry capitalizes on this, as Asia is the biggest market. And as I showed earlier, it is reflected in the huge increase of these notes within big houses from LVMH.

Like isn’t this enough ?

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I don't understand what you are trying to say about this being 'enough'? I was expanding on discussion and not stating anything to the contrary of Asian and specifically China being an increasingly important market that is being catered to, it is specifically mentioned in the part of my message you choose not to quote.

The point i wanted to expand on was just to suggest that the local marketing preferences could also in favor other less "Asian" sounding notes that still have local significance as a reference. This doesn't really have any implication for the marketing of one specific fragrance like Oud and Yuzu by Guerlain, meaning it could very well be that is was created with Chinese consumers in mind.

I don't understand the need to create a dichotomy where every single statement is for one specific side side of the issue.

This is perhaps a personal preference, but I also don't care for an extremely aggressive style and name calling, not necessarily directed at your post @Schoeibksr )).

Schoeibksr said:

International luxury brands like Chanel and Dior have traditionally dominated Chinas perfume market, but as chinese consumers show an increasing preference for “eastern“ scent notes, companies like L‘Oreal are choosing to invest in local chinese perfume brands.

Why’s that, and where’s the numbers, you may ask ?

Despite a relatively late start, China’s perfume and fragrance market has been catching up with the global market at full speed in recent years.
In 2021, retail sales of high-end perfume products in China recorded the fastest growth in a decade, pulling off an increase of 33% year-on-year – and leading market research institute Euromonitor International to dub 2021 the beginning of China’s “smell economy”.
On one hand, the prolonged impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic on mental health have contributed to the growth of the perfume market, with more young Chinese consumers seeking scented-based remedies to reduce anxiety and lift their mood.

Up until three years ago, international luxury brands dominated the Chinese perfume and fragrance landscape. But now the tables are turning, and the marketing is seeing the rise of homegrown perfume brands such as Documents, To Summer and Scent Library. These brands have been taking on traditional foreign perfume makers like Chanel and Jo Malone with unique Eastern scents. Unlike their Western counterparts, these Chinese brands are curating more subtle scents using oriental ingredients such as lotus, bamboo and mugwort (again, same could be applied to Oud, Saffron, Yuzu, …)These scents cater to the olfactory preferences of China’s young consumers, while also tapping into the Guochao trend,since the locally-grown plants are synonymous with Chinese literature and cultures, benefitting both branding and storytelling.

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Thanks for all this information, it is really interesting. But it mostly proves the point that Asian brands are catering to Asian tastes, makes sense! Lol

I think the point that @Guasón is referring to that has frequently been proposed as self evident fact without evidence, is the idea that Western companies catering to Asian markets have resulted in lackluster releases of light fruity florals... which makes this all the more ironic:

Schoeibksr said:

The responses also reflected that floral and fruity fragrances (EUROPEAN) were losing their appeal among savvy young Chinese consumers, who are constantly seeking “something different”.

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This notion has been floating around the fragrance community long enough to be cliche by now. The underlying (and vaguely xenophobic) assumption behind this belief is that we in the west are suffering through a decline in interesting releases because western brands are catering to a less sophisticated/more bland Asian pallete.

Of course this is not true, the cultural interaction has just expanded the fragrance pallete and made things all the more interesting. And you've handily disproved this idea with your post as well.

@cheapimitation
First of all regarding your now deleted message (view screenshots) :
In my opinion, the troll is clearly Guason. He changed the initial topic, disagreed with facts while not providing any by himself, while I’m here making the effort to back up these claims with relevant & official stats. If you’re arguing with a guy who simply disagrees, belittles & ignores your points, then why would anyone want to take him serious ? Slpfrsly doesn’t (for good reasons, see his reply above), but I still do, because I do like a good debate as well. But - it’s starting to bore me when he keeps doing that, as it doesn’t bring anyone forward. If you disagree, then provide some actual, official, sourced counterfacts as well !